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士郎の理想、英雄となった姿があなたではないのですか。

I think the subject of なった is 姿, but a friend tells me it's 士郎.

Is it not possible that the sentence means

The figure that became hero, are not you?

?

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Honda
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2 Answers2

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As a whole sentence, 「士郎の理想、英雄となった姿」 is the long subject phrase. If I have to narrow down, 理想 and 姿 are the two parallel subjects.

According to this Wikipedia article, this tweet, and this page, this question is made in a special context. Here, the speaker is talking to Archer, who is supposed to be the reincarnation of Shirou, who wanted to became a hero. Archer says he and Shirou are two separate beings. But the speaker believes that the person in front of the speaker, Archer, and Shiro are virtually the same person.

  1. あなたが士郎の理想です。
    You are the ideal of Shirou.
  2. 士郎の理想があなたです。("you" emphasized in this form)
    The ideal of Shirou is you. (or It's you that is the ideal of Shirou.)
  3. 士郎の理想、英雄となった姿があなたです。
    The ideal of Shirou, the figure (of Shirou) who became a hero, is you.
  4. 士郎の理想、英雄となった姿があなたですか。
    Is the ideal of Shirou, the figure (of Shirou) who became a hero, you?
  5. 士郎の理想、英雄となった姿があなたではないのですか。
    Isn't the ideal of Shirou, the figure (of Shirou) who became a hero, you?

In the first half of the sentnece, there is a relative clause "英雄となった". And the subject of the なった is 士郎, as your friend suspected. You can understand it like 「士郎の理想、(つまり／そして、)士郎が英雄となった姿」 (Here's the article about GA-NO conversion, just in case you don't know that)

AがBとなった姿 = the figure of A who became B; A in the form of B; etc.

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naruto
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  • Thank you very much, Naruto, I really appreciate it.

    • Then the line it's "Shirou GA risou eiyuu to natta, anatta de wa nai no desu ka."? Is that why "Shirou" is the subject despite not having "ga"? (The "no" is replaced by "ga")

    • If "shirou" is the subject, why they not re-name/call it again after "shirou no risou"?

    • Why it is said that can be "YOU ARE the ideal of Shirou"? Isn't that "You are" definitely not up to "sugata"? I say this because the particle ga it's with sugata.

    • So it is impossible that the phrase is "The ideal of shirou became in a hero, are you not you?", no?

     – Honda Oct 27 '14 at 17:57
  • It is not necessary to say 士郎が twice, directly before 英雄と, because there is already 士郎の at the very beginning of the sentence. Perhaps this is related to left-node raising. And please note that you are talking about two types of "subjects". The global subjects of this sentence are "姿" and "理想". This sentence basically asks two things in parallel: "Isn't the ideal you?" and "Isn't the figure you?". And there is also a local subject, in the relative clause "(士郎が)英雄となった", which modifies "figure". The local subject of なった is of course 士郎. – naruto Oct 28 '14 at 02:26
  • Ah, i see. So, "あなたではないのですか" refers to both to "姿" and "理想"? But the "が" does not indicate that the subject of "あなたではないのですか" is "理想"? Then it's impossible that the subject of "なった" would be "姿", right? There is something that justifies this last? Thank you very much again. – Honda Oct 28 '14 at 11:19
  • "が" is our primary subject marker (See this and this). Let's simplify and split this sentence into two. 「[士郎の理想]が、あなたですか。[(士郎が)英雄となった姿]が、あなたですか。」 (global subject in brackets). The first asks, "[Shiro's ideal] is you?". Easy. The most literal translation of the second question would be, "[the figure, where Shirou became a hero] is you?". The same structure as "彼が英雄になった時間 (the time when he became a hero)" or "彼が英雄になった理由 (the reason why he became a hero)". – naruto Oct 28 '14 at 12:56
  • Thank you very much. Japanese people understand well this line the first time they hear it? (1:10:30 to 1:10:35 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7obFlaRzAe8) I think it's a little complicated. Then "ga" particle it's not necessary for saying "Shirou became a hero", right? (Because "士郎の理想" don't have "が". – Honda Oct 28 '14 at 20:35
  • What I needed was the special context -- everyone who watches that video understands who became the person in front of Saber, so people should instantly understand the meaning of her question. Who else become a hero in this context? I already explained why "士郎が" is unnecessary before "英雄となった姿" . But "が" after "士郎の理想" is omitted for a different reason. You only need one が for parallel subjects. (cf. "犬が、猫が、猿が来た" = "犬、猫、猿が来た") – naruto Oct 29 '14 at 00:31
  • Thank you very much for everything, I am very grateful to you. I just wondered if the Japanese people who see the movie for the first time without knowing anything of the original material or history, would understand the phrase as "the ideal of shirou became hero", which change too much history. – Honda Oct 29 '14 at 01:07
  • Good point. When I see "あなたは士郎の理想だ/You are Shirou's ideal" without any context, naturally I would assume "you" and 士郎 are two different persons (see the first version of my answer)! – naruto Oct 29 '14 at 02:26
  • I see, then if I translate that phrase about making the movie subtitle, what would be the most correct translation?

    • The ideal of Shirou, the figure after became a hero, are you not you? (unspecified subject or anything, true to the Japanese.)

    • You are the figure after Shirō became a hero, which was his ideal, aren't you? (specifying the subject and others, but less true to the japanese)

    • Or another one?

    Thank you very much!

     – Honda Oct 29 '14 at 12:51
  • Your last one looks pretty good to me. The one in the YouTube video is a kind of free translation, but it conveys the meaning well, too. – naruto Oct 29 '14 at 13:46
  • I see. Thank you very much. Personally I do not like the translation of youtube because it omits important things like that "Shirou became..." – Honda Oct 29 '14 at 15:42
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英雄となった姿 is followed by が which should tell you it's not that. Ex: 彼は目が青。(subj: him).

Can't tell w/o some reference, but the subject is あなた. Could be Shirou, might not be.

kiss-o-matic
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  • Thanks but sometimes i hear lines like "kaizoku to naru otoko da!". This can't be a similar case? – Honda Oct 26 '14 at 22:49
  • That's correct - not similar (if that's the whole sentence). In that case, the subject is inferred. Prepend 「彼は」or the like in your head. This happens all the time in Japanese. – kiss-o-matic Oct 27 '14 at 07:17