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I started reading 三人法師　by Tanizaki Junichiro and I came accross this sentence :

高野の山へ集って来たからにはどうせ世を厭う人々ではありながら、同じ厭離の願いを遂げるにも座禅入定の法もあれば念佛三昧の道もある。

I interpret this sentence as :

While they are people who will hate the world anyway now that they have gathered at the mountain of Takano, even to achieve (同じ厭離の願い) if there is a 座禅入定の法, there is also a 念佛三昧の道.

So I have a few questions:

  • What is a good translation for 厭う（いとう）? It means "to hate" but it also means "大事にする" as I saw in the dictionary so I can't put my finger on a good translation, or a good way to interpret this word.

  • What does 同じ厭離の願い mean in this sentence ?

  • And I see にも as のにも without the の but I am not sure, as I have never seen にも directly after a 連体形 without の. But it reminds me of には which I read somewhere that is a contraction of ためには or のには. Am I correct on this ?

  • I think I translated properly but the whole sentence doesn't make much sense, can anyone correct me please ?

Thanks!

Gunjo
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  • I think, in this context, "hate" is a bit too strong a word to use. I think in this context it's about growing weary of the mundane world and all its nonsense. Perhaps, "grow fed up with the world". This one sentence seems heavily laden with Buddhist ideas – A.Ellett Jul 26 '17 at 00:24
  • +1 also for forcing me to review からには and remember that it follows the た- (or dictionary) form. – Tommy Jul 26 '17 at 00:29
  • "to have disdain for the world [ie. samsara]" I think that's the phrase I would use for "を厭う". I know that samsara isn't mentioned, but that is what a Buddhist would mean by that. – A.Ellett Jul 26 '17 at 00:31
  • Thanks, but we can't say "please disdain your body" as in お体をおいといください can we ? I am trying to find the closest translation possible to 厭う – Gunjo Jul 26 '17 at 00:58
  • Well "revulsion" might then work or "contempt". This is not an idea that easily translates to English because it's referencing a particular Buddhist practice. But, you could certainly say, "Please have disdain for your body". It might sound a bit odd in English, but that's not a problem so much of word choice as an concept somewhat alien. – A.Ellett Jul 26 '17 at 01:03
  • Thanks I think I will stick with revulsion and as for the meaning 大事にする i'll just see it as another meaning since it seems to be a derivation from the basic meaning 嫌って避ける so I don't think it can be translated into another language – Gunjo Jul 26 '17 at 01:47
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    後で回答しますが、とりあえず、 ①最後の方の「ば」はこれやこれを見てください ②この「厭う」は基本的には「嫌がる」方の意味です。 – naruto Jul 26 '17 at 01:56

2 Answers2

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厭う is not hating something actively or strongly; rather, it's trying to keep emotional distance from something. 世を厭う in this context refers to keeping distance from secular life and entering the priesthood to achieve 解脱/悟り, which is a kind of "liberation". 厭離の願い refers to the same thing. FWIW, I didn't know 厭う can also mean 大事にする. 体を厭う makes little sense at least to me.

  • AからにはBだ: "Considering the fact A, B", "A indicates B", "Now that A, B".
  • dictionary-form + には: "In order to ～". に marks a purpose, and は marks a topic. The nominalizer の is not necessary in this case. And here も is replacing は for emphasis.

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  • ～も～ば～も: "not only A but also B." Don't use if to translate this pattern.

My translation attempt:

Considering the fact that they gathered at Mount Koya, they must be ones who have forsaken the secular world, after all. Still, in order to achieve 厭離の願い, there are not only 座禅入定の法 but also 念佛三昧の道.

Where 座禅入定の法 refers to achieving 悟り via silent zazen, and 念佛三昧の道 refers to achieving 悟り via intensive nenbutsu.

naruto
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  • Thanks for the answer. But I don't understand why you translated "must" ? Do you really understand it as "must" in japanese ? I wanted to make the translation to be the most literal possible so it kind of surprise me. – Gunjo Jul 26 '17 at 13:29
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    It can be tanslated without must (in the sense of 違いない), but the second part of this construction is usually something strong and opinionated (はずだ、ないといけない、べきだ、etc.) – naruto Jul 26 '17 at 13:37
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高野の山へ集って来たからにはどうせ世を厭う人々ではありながら、同じ厭離の願いを遂げるにも座禅入定の法もあれば念佛三昧の道もある。 

<p>While they are people who will hate the world anyway now that they have gathered at the mountain of Takano, even to achieve (同じ厭離の願い) if there is a 座禅入定の法, there is also a 念佛三昧の道.  </p>

What is a good translation for 厭う（いとう）? It means "to hate" but it also means "大事にする" as I saw in the dictionary so I can't put my finger on a good translation, or a good way to interpret this word.

I've never noticed they are the same word, but from the context, we naturally think that this 厭う means to hate or dislike.

(In どうせ世を厭う人々, this 厭う isn't necessarily talking about the future; Japanese verb forms don't tell tense by itself. The speaker is just presuming.)

What does 同じ厭離の願い mean in this sentence ?

And I see にも as のにも without the の but I am not sure, as I have never seen にも directly after a 連体形 without の. But it reminds me of には which I read somewhere that is a contraction of ためには or のには. Am I correct on this ?

同じ厭離の願いを遂げるにも, without の, it's just a style; it's the same as
同じ厭離の願いを遂げるのにも or
同じ厭離の願いを遂げるにしても.

We often say 同じことをするにしても, and
seldom say 同じことをするのにしても.

They are saying, even in (the same) doing[realizing a wish of escaping the worldly world]
--- This is the premise.

And the writer continues to say there are two ways to do it.

karlalou
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