Understanding of a sentence from Death Note

Question

The original sentence is:

今までに明らかになった被害者と思われる心臓麻痺死者の全ては、日本で情報を得る事が可能だった者と裏付けが取れました

I think 〜者と裏付け is the abbreviation for 〜者という裏付け. And my question is: should I add a だ behind 〜者, so that the sentence becomes:

今までに明らかになった被害者と思われる心臓麻痺死者の全ては、日本で情報を得る事が可能だった者だと（いう）裏付けが取れました？

I think the modified sentence is more natural. Is it? Or did the original sentence just omit the だ?

Re だ, both are ok. https://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/91305/45489 — sundowner, May 12 '23 at 02:55
Regarding your doubt about (the omission of) だ after 被害者, 心臓麻痺死者 and 被害者 here refer to the same set of people, rather than a whole set and a subset. You might say 被害者の心臓麻痺死者 if you're already certain they are indeed 被害者 of the criminal you're after. と思われる works on 被害者 like "alleged." The uncertainty expressed by it is not so much about the statement 心臓麻痺死者は被害者だ with the subject specifically pointing to 心臓麻痺死者. It's more about the status of the dead people you're looking at as 被害者 and those dead people are already known to be 心臓麻痺死者. This interpretation comes more natural without だ. — aguijonazo, May 13 '23 at 05:56
Besides, the insertion of だ there would make it likelier for the phrase to be parsed as [今までに明らかになった被害者だ] と思われる心臓麻痺死者 when it's intended to be read as 今までに明らかになった [被害者だと思われる心臓麻痺死者]. This is because people expect だ to end a longer sentence than just one word. — aguijonazo, May 13 '23 at 05:57
@aguijonazo Thank you for comments! I get your points. But I still have a question: just like the relative clause in English: "the people dying of heart attacks who are alleged to be victims of the criminal" can be seen as made from "the people dying of heart attacks are alleged to be victims of the criminal", could 被害者と思われる心臓麻痺死者 be seen as made from 心臓麻痺死者が被害者と思われる? If yes, I think the 思われる acts as a passive, which means "be alleged". How do you think of it? — shepherd, May 13 '23 at 07:41
It's not a passive. It's called 自発形. 思う doesn't usually take a person as its direct object unless it's used in the sense of "to think of someone fondly," which clearly doesn't apply here. This means if that 思われる were a passive, it would be a suffering passive, which also doesn't make sense here. — aguijonazo, May 13 '23 at 09:49
@aguijonazo Many thanks! But I still have 2 questions: 1. Do you think 心臓麻痺死者が被害者と思われる is correct? 2. And about the passive, can't 〜を〜と思う be used as "think of someone. as something"? such as 心臓麻痺死者を被害者と思う, and isn't 心臓麻痺死者が被害者と思われる just like the direct passive of it? — shepherd, May 13 '23 at 10:35
@aguijonazo Thank you, For Aが企業の基準を公正妥当(だ)と認められる, my point is it's 認められる but not 認める, so it's a indirect passive, what does that mean? A is suffering from that the 企業の基準 is recognized to be 公正妥当? — shepherd, May 13 '23 at 10:57
It means someone does something to something you consider to be part of you as in 足を踏まれる, where 足 is the direct object of 踏む but is still marked by を in the passive sentence. The subject is 私 as the whole. There is no such part in 心臓麻痺死者が被害者と思われる. — aguijonazo, May 13 '23 at 11:23
@aguijonazo I mean it's a direct passive not indirect. To be more clear, if I said 警察が心臓麻痺死者を被害者と思う which means the police regard 心臓麻痺死者 as 被害者, and 心臓麻痺死者 is the direct object of 思う, right? The direct passive of this sentence is just 心臓麻痺死者が(警察に)被害者と思われる. Although it may sound unnatural to you, but the form is just like the direct passive of other transitive verbs, right? That's what I mean. — shepherd, May 13 '23 at 11:52
It’s OK but 思う in that construction seems to me like an informal substitute for more appropriate verbs. And that passive still has a suffering sense. — aguijonazo, May 13 '23 at 12:20
@aguijonazo Thank you so much, now I have a better understanding. — shepherd, May 13 '23 at 13:34

score 2 · Accepted Answer · answered May 12 '23 at 03:02

2

You are right, と and という are interchangeable here. And it's generally safer to keep だ before this type of と, although it's often dropped in reality. Omission of this type of だ is sometimes called だ抜き, and some people frown upon it if it happens in formal text. See the following article from NHK.

「だ抜きことば」？

But also note that there are similar but different cases where だ can be omitted safely. See the discussion here: Difference between だと vs と before 認める

answered May 12 '23 at 03:02

naruto

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Thank you for your answer! But I think the structrue of the original sentence is like 「彼は犯人という裏付けが取れました」. Do you think it's more natural to add the 「だ」:「彼は犯人だという裏付けが取れました」？ – shepherd May 12 '23 at 03:18
@shepherd Yes, since 彼は犯人だ is a sentence with a subject, だ should not be omitted at least in sophisticated news articles and such. – naruto May 12 '23 at 03:25
In my opinion, the structure of original sentence is 「〜全ては〜者（だ）という裏付けが取れますた」. Here isn't「〜全ては〜者だ」 a sentence like 「彼は犯人だ」? – shepherd May 12 '23 at 03:31
1

@shepherd It is. Everything before the と is a long sentence (clause), and that is exactly why it's better to keep だ before と(いう). The original sentence is still correct and natural, but it sounds a little unsophisticated to me if this is a news article. – naruto May 12 '23 at 03:36
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@shepherd Did you mean 思う? 死者を被害者(だ)と思う is correct regardless of if there is だ, but 死者を被害者だと思われる makes no sense unless indirect passive is intended. – naruto May 12 '23 at 04:04
Oh, I'm sorry. It should be 心臓麻痺死者が被害者(だ)と思われる, because it's a passive sentece. And here と is not a quotative-と, so the original sentence is correct whether there's だ behind 被害者 or not. Is this statement correct? – shepherd May 12 '23 at 04:44
@shepherd と in 心臓麻痺死者が被害者(だ)と思われる is a quotative-と, without doubt (が is a subject marker, and 思われる is 思う with spontanous-れる). And that means 死者が被害者だ is a sentence. And that means dropping だ does make it less sophisticated. Compare, in 死者を被害者と思う, there is no "sentence" before the と. Please read the last link in my answer if you haven't. – naruto May 12 '23 at 05:41
Yes，I've read it. But can't we think the structure 心臓麻痺死者が(被害者だ)と思われる and (心臓麻痺死者が被害者だ)と思われる both are OK? The former is just the passive form of 心臓麻痺死者を(被害者だ)と思う？If it can't be explained in this way, why can it be written as 被害者と思われる心臓麻痺死者, no だ behind 被害者? – shepherd May 12 '23 at 05:59
@shepherd That (suffering) passive reading is technically possible but semantically impossible. It would mean "Those dead people are (mistakenly) considered as being victims, which are annoying to them!", which makes no sense. This 思われる is spontaneous. – naruto May 12 '23 at 06:38
By the way, 認められる isn't spontaneous? why it can be written as 企業の基準を公正妥当(だ)と認められる using を, but there's no way to say 心臓麻痺死者を被害者(だ)と思われる？ – shepherd May 12 '23 at 07:30
Sorry, my words are a bit disorganized. You said in the link: 公正妥当だと認められる企業の基準 is made from 企業の基準を公正妥当だと認められる, and it's Ok to drop だ in the latter, so 公正妥当と認められる企業の基準 is OK. And I think 被害者だと思われる心臓麻痺死者 is made from 心臓麻痺死者が被害者だと思われるwhere we cann't drop だ, why 被害者と思われる心臓麻痺死者 is natural? – shepherd May 12 '23 at 07:56
@shepherd Because 妥当だと認められる and 被害者だと思われる (in your context in question) are very different. The former is "is granted as legitimate" (passive) but the latter is not "is considered as a victim". Your original sentence has no passive voice in the first place. – naruto May 12 '23 at 09:55
But I think the original form is (人が)企業の基準を公正妥当(だ)と認める. To be a passive sentence, shouldn't it be like 企業の基準が (人に)公正妥当(だ)と認められる？ – shepherd May 12 '23 at 10:05
@shepherd 企業の基準を公正妥当だと認められる is also correct. Look up indirect passive. Anyway, your 被害者だと思われる心臓麻痺死者 has no passive and no を to begin with. What you're seeing is a simplest sentence "心臓麻痺死者は被害者だ" and a spontaneous-れる. – naruto May 12 '23 at 10:29
I'm so sorry for bothering you, my points are: 1. if Aが企業の基準を公正妥当(だ)と認められる (I replace 人 by A)is indirect passive, what you mean here is not "企業の基準 is granted as 公正妥当 by A" but "A's 企業の基準 is granted as 公正妥当 by other people", right? 2. the だ in 被害者だと思われる心臓麻痺死者 does be omitted in the sentence of my question while it hasn't a hidden を, but it still sounds natural? – shepherd May 12 '23 at 10:45

score 1 · Answer 2 · answered May 12 '23 at 03:04

I think both are fine. When we focus on the former:

今までに明らかになった被害者と思われる心臓麻痺死者の全ては、日本で情報を得る事が可能だった者と裏付けが取れました

You can see that there is a construct 全ては - だった者 which is considered neat because this then allows the 裏付け to refer to that entire part. 全ては - だった者だという裏付け is fine, too but it's less compact and the reference to 全ては is arguably less clearer than the former form.

But again, both forms are fine IMO.

Understanding of a sentence from Death Note

2 Answers2

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